In this interview with GBENRO ADEOYE, a chieftain of the Peoples Democratic Party and former Minister of Transportation, Chief Ebenezer Babatope, says the internal wrangling in the party could affect its chances in the next general elections
Your party has zoned its national chairmanship to the North. What do you make of that?
It is not a bad idea; no. Taking the national chairmanship of the party to the North is not a bad idea as long as whoever is selected from the North is not from the North-East. And if we are going to go to the North-East, I must say it must not be Ali Modu Sheriff. But whoever is elected from the zone cannot midwife a northern presidential candidate for the party in 2019. So we must still have another convention that will appoint another person from another zone, like the South to midwife a northern presidential candidate of the PDP. But endorsing Sheriff as the chairman of the party is totally wrong. He is a stranger to the party and he is a man who has nothing to offer except to cause confusion and destroy the party.
What is really the problem? Is it that you have something against Sheriff being the Chairman of the PDP or about wanting the position zoned to the South-West?
No! I know Sheriff very well; I don’t have anything against him. But the truth is that he is not a member of our party. The man just joined the party. There are rules and regulations in the party that explain whether a man can contest for any position or not. Apart from that, he just joined the party.
He was brought by some people and then became the national chairman. Even though they said he was taking the position of the former PDP National Chairman, Alhaji Adamu Muazu, the point is that if anyone would take the position of Muazu in office, it is not Sheriff that should be there. So even if the position is zoned to the North-East, it should not be Sheriff that should occupy the position. No! No! No! He is not qualified at all by any standard to be the chairman of the PDP. Even if for the purpose of argument, we say that the North-East should provide a chairman, why should it be Sheriff? It could be any other person. There are so many people in the North East. But the issue is that a chairman from the North cannot midwife a northern presidential candidate for the PDP in 2019. After the Ike Ekweremadu report, The PDP agreed that the candidate of our party for the presidency must come from the North. So somebody from the region cannot say that he is going to midwife the nominations and election of candidates from the North. There must still be another convention that will appoint somebody from the South, who will now superintend over all the electoral affairs that will determine the northern presidential candidate of the party.
A former presidential aide, Dr. Doyin Okupe, recently said that the South-West PDP has been marginalised over the years. Do you agree that the PDP has been taking its members in the South-West for granted?
I won’t say that. But honestly speaking, do we have a credible committee of the party, in terms of the National Working Committee? But nobody can come out and say within the NWC that the South-West should not have the chairmanship position. That is the point we are making. They must get these things right and determine the priorities of the party and know that the PDP wants to return to power and the Nigerian people are supporting the PDP now. We must not dampen the spirit of the Nigerian people who are supporting us once again.
So since the presidency has been zoned to the North for 2019 election, are you insisting that the national chairman of the party must be from the South-West or another region in the South?
Speaking objectively, we cannot dictate what to do to the party. I have told you the objection of our people to the fact that somebody like Sheriff is being asked to come and preside over our affairs. He is a stranger to our organisation. This is a man who has spent lots of money fighting against the PDP. But the PDP South West has got the right to demand and say that the PDP should kindly look towards its right to have the next chairman of the party. One, the PDP South West has never been elected chairman of the party. Two, we believe that we have got the people that can make the party to be strong, progressive and viable. That is what we are saying. We are not forcing the party by saying it must bring the national chairmanship of the party to the South West. No, we can’t do that. That is not party politics.
Some people have described PDP members from the South-West as behaving like Oliver Twist, that after all, the region had the presidency for eight years, a position that some zones in the country have not had the opportunity to hold yet. Why are you making so much fuss about the party’s national chairmanship?
The South-East has been chairman of the party and when former President Olusegun Obasanjo was President, you would not find the South-West clamouring for other positions in the party. No, we didn’t do that. President Obasanjo won and became President for eight years. Today we believe that the South-West should be given a chance. But if the party believes that the position should be zoned to another part of the country from the South, there is no problem, everything will be okay. But if it feels that it can give South-West a chance, let the party go ahead and do that and we will not disappoint the party.
It appears that the people behind Sheriff are the PDP governors and some party chieftains, including from the South-West like Governor Ayo Fayose. Do you see such persons as traitors to the cause of the South-West caucus to have the national chairmanship?
No! No! No! I am not mentioning names now because that is not my problem. But except there is anybody from the South-West who says we must not have the national chairmanship and argues that it must not come here; then he will be a traitor to the cause of his own people. But we cannot say the governors are traitors. No! No! No! We cannot say that. This is democracy and people are entitled to their own opinions. All we are saying is that if after all said and done, our party, the PDP, decides that the chairmanship should go to a particular place in the country outside the South-West, no problem, we are going to work very well with that person. All we know is that our objection to Sheriff is based on principles. The man has not been a member of our party. He was just brought to come and be the chairman of our party and the man told us initially when there was opposition to his emergence that he was going to leave before the Port Harcourt convention. Now his supporters are saying that he wants to go back to the position; that is very wrong. I will continue to say it is wrong. I will continue to say that he should not be there. That is all.
Dr. Okupe said that some members would reconsider their membership of the party, but none has gone yet. Are you one of those planning to quit the party?
You cannot blame Dr. Okupe for making that statement. That is his opinion and it is tolerated and permitted in a democracy. Even people from the South-West that are saying ‘don’t bring the chairmanship to the South-West’ are expressing their opinions. But we are saying that it is not done like that anywhere in the world. But having said that, as far as some of us and I are concerned, we know that we are not toddlers. We cannot abandon the PDP for Sheriff and his supporters. We cannot do that. So we will not say that we will quit the PDP for Sheriff. We will not also do that. We will remain there and fight constitutionally to ensure that justice is done and fair play is upheld. We will make sure that the man does not remain in the position to preside over illegalities in the party. He is now trying to amend the party’s constitution- a constitution that he has not been used to observing. Those are the things we are fighting for. Dr. Okupe is free to express his own opinion and people are free to move to other parties. For instance, my very good friend, former Senate President, Ken Nnamani, has left the PDP. In my first comment on it, I said Nnamani was free to express his opinion and to leave. He was a big asset to the PDP, so we have lost somebody who is credible and good. So we will still prevail on people to stay in the party and fight. We are going to fight. We will fight with our constitution, the Nigerian constitution and everything we have to ensure that we convince PDP supporters never to succumb to the whims and caprices of those who want to destroy the party.
Just to be clear, are you saying that you are not going to leave the party no matter what?
No! No! No! I won’t leave the PDP. I’m too old to do that. Besides, what for? To go and join the APC? If I were to leave and join any party at all, the party that would attract my attention and interest would be the Unity Party of Nigeria, which was my party led by the great statesman, Chief Obafemi Awolowo, in the Second Republic. But I’ve not considered that now because I am in the PDP and I want to remain in the PDP. I pray to God that he will make me to be alive when the PDP returns to power in Nigeria.
If the situation continues as it is and some key members of the party decide to defect to other parties, do you know that it will affect the party’s chances to return to power and make your wish come true?
Of course, it is going to have serious effects on the party and that is why we will continue to prevail on people that escapism will never be an answer to what is going on- leaving the party will never be an answer. We should stay and fight together. If they leave, we are simply going to miss them; we are missing Nnamani and some of them already. Therefore, we must remain in the party and fight to make sure all the people who want to destroy our party are clinically removed from it using our constitution and the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria.
Some people ask why the issue of Sheriff is causing so much controversy in the party.
I don’t know. Some people are supporting him for selfish reasons.
What selfish reasons?
There are those who feel that Sheriff will help them fight their case if they have any kind of criminal matter. But that is selfish. There are some of us who believe that if you want to deal with anybody on legal aspects, it must be done within the laws of the land and in a way that it will not harm the legal interests of anyone. All of them supporting Sheriff are doing so because of selfish reasons; that is all. It is not because of any party interest.
But some PDP members have said that Sheriff knows the APC inside out and the way to deliver the presidency to the PDP come 2019. Shouldn’t you all want that?
That is not correct. Why did he not deliver the presidency to the All Nigeria Peoples Party, which was his party before? Even though some people are saying that he is President Muhammadu Buahari’s in-law, then can we now say that President Buhari has sent Sheriff to come and destroy the PDP if it is true that he is an in-law to the President? Even if it is so, then it is morally wrong for the PDP to give chairmanship to such a person because interests are involved.
Some former ministers are also against the choice of Sheriff. Is the South-West caucus meeting with them to have a strong front to fight the battle?
Former ministers or former anything within the party are free to come to any meetings of the PDP as long as the meetings are legally called. Many of the former ministers that served this country from 1999 have expressed their opinion that they don’t want Sheriff. That is a good voice coming from them. But as far as I’m concerned, I have objected to the choice of Sheriff based on the things I have analysed. I have nothing personal against him. Sheriff and I are former members of the United Nigeria Congress Party during the Sani Abacha era.
At that time, we were in the same party. But what I’m saying now is that this is a different ball game. This is a new situation. We are of the PDP; he was of the ANPP. He had never been with us and he just came from nowhere to now say he wants to dominate our affairs. We say no to that; it is wrong. I will fight it on the basis of that legal principle.
So what is your next plan of action since you have made it clear that you won’t leave the party and it looks like Sheriff will retain the position?
We will fight on. I tell you, we will fight on, constitutionally and peacefully too. There are rumours all over the town that some of them are trying to engage political assassins; I wish them the very best of luck. But we will fight on through our recourse to legality and through our recourse to what makes a party like the PDP to be a genuine peoples’ oriented party.
We understand that there will be a meeting of the Board of Trustees soon where the issue is likely to come up. What do you expect to get out of it?
When a meeting of the BoT is called, I will be there. I’m still a member until they go ahead and get rid of us because we are told that they have even chosen a new chairman of the BoT by themselves. One of the programmes we are told they want to implement is to ensure that their man becomes the new chairman of the BoT. We are even told that the new chairman of the BoT will be appointed from the South West. We wish them the very best of luck. It doesn’t stop us. But when the BoT, as properly constituted, calls a meeting, we will all be there to ensure that we attend and the issue will be openly discussed and then decisions will be openly and democratically arrived at.
So are you saying that the Sheriff camp is already trying to lobby some members of South-West caucus with cash and positions such as the BoT Chairmanship you have just mentioned?
I’ m talking for myself; I cannot talk for any other person. I can only talk of myself and a few of my friends that I know very well. I cannot talk for any other person. If they are convinced and they join them, that is their own problem, not mine. It doesn’t stop the struggle we are in. We are having this struggle on the basis of sound and noble principles that can be defended at anytime.
You must really be disappointed by all this since people say you also have an ambition to become the national chairman of the party, so realising you may never get it must really be painful to you.
Let me say clearly to you now, I have no ambition whatsoever to become the Chairman of the PDP. My ambition is to stay with the PDP, build the PDP and make sure that the PDP returns to power. If anything at all, I’m one of those who believe that we have got men of experience and any of them can be the Chairman of the PDP. We have Chief Olabode George; we have Chief Yekini Adeojo; we have Alhaji Shuaibu Oyedokun. The three of them are former deputy national chairmen of the PDP. And if you ask me for my own opinion, I will tell you that I have been the person behind the move that Bode George should become the chairman of the party, but it is not for me to do. It is for me to say my own and for other people to democratically take a decision. But I’m not interested. I was never interested. I wanted to be secretary of the party and the party rejected me and I have taken a decision on that. In fact, my children have all taken a decision with me that I must not be interested in anything of that nature. So I’m not interested.
You once said that the PDP will get the APC out of the Presidential Villa in 2019. Do you still think so with the internal wrangling in your party?
Well, if our internal wrangling should continue till that time, then it will depend upon the electorate; I can tell you that. But if we are able to stop this internal wrangling and allow someone who is qualified to be the chairman of the party, we will get Buhari out of power in 2019. The Nigerian people are for us now and it will be a tragedy for those of us in the party to now move against the interest of the people. I can assure you that if we have collective leadership in 2019, we will get Buhari and the APC out of power.
But some people have said that for the PDP to have any chance in 2019, it will need to bring up young people with clean records and do away with old people. Even Governor Fayose made reference to this recently.
Who has not been giving the young people the chance to move up? The PDP has always allowed young people to emerge and people who are old can also emerge. Where has God said all my creations are divided into old and young? So to the man who says he wants to get all of us elders killed, we wish him the best of luck. Is he not going to get old? And if he gets old, will he want someone to say they want to kill him or relegate him to the back seat? Honestly, it is nonsensical talk. I’m very surprised that that should come from Ayo Fayose, to say that all elders (in the party) should take the back seat. If it is the wish of the people to be led by young people, of course, it is good and nobody has ever stood against that kind of principle. But to say that the old men should take the back seat, I mean it is nonsensical talk and it should just be taken as nonsensical talk.
Do you think that Buhari is doing well under the circumstances as his government clocks one year?
I’m not in the APC and I cannot be campaigning for the party. But if we were to talk objectively, I think that we should allow him to finish his programmes within the next one or two years. He has a mandate of four years and I am not impatient to see him out of power because he has not done one thing or the other. Let him do his programmes in whatever way he wants to do them. And besides, I’m a bit selfish in the sense that Buhari is from my generation. He is only one month, seven days older than me. So I want him to succeed. But when you talk in terms of the PDP and the APC, I will be the happiest person if the APC and Buhari continue to blunder from one thing to the other because it is going to strengthen our hope to return to power and the Nigerian people are going to give us the opportunity to come back to power.
Is it true that you still have a grudge against Buhari since you were jailed when he was military head of state?
I’m a Christian; I have forgiven those who have offended me. Though, it is difficult for me to forget that President Muhammadu Buhari put me in detention for 21 months without committing any offence. But I have forgiven him. I’m not in his party; I’m in the PDP and I can never be in the same party with him. All I can say is that I wish him the best of luck as he governs but I cannot forget the fact that for 21 months, he kept me in detention. My father died; he didn’t allow me to bury him. Even though later on, his mother died and before he arrived home, she had been buried. But that notwithstanding, it is difficult for me to forget and I will not forget until I go to the world beyond.
What do you make of his anti-corruption war and the fact that many of your party members have been found to have allegedly looted this country dry?
I support anything Buhari or the APC does to ensure that the wings of corruption are clipped in Nigeria. But my problem is this; you are saying that the PDP did this and that, but what about the APC? Did the APC spend stones on elections? Did it not spend money? Where did they get the money from? So to be fair, we must also investigate the APC and bring out facts that we will show to the world that they spent money to the advantage of the party. This government can do whatever it likes with corruption. It can arrest anybody who is culprit, even in the PDP, but I’m saying that fair is fair. We must be fair to all. We must know that the APC is made up of men and those men also did virtually worse things than what they are now accusing the PDP of.
